Eye-Opening Quotes from Federal Vision Advocates & Others

FEDERAL VISION…..

Prof. David Engelsma
The gospel of salvation by grace alone is in mortal danger in virtually every reputedly conservative Reformed and Presbyterian denomination in North America.
The (FV) movement is radical apostasy from the Reformed faith, that is, from biblical, Protestant Christianity. The movement of covenantal universalism (Engelsma’s term for FV) rejects the doctrine of justification by faith alone, teaching that the sinner is justified by faith and by the good works of faith. At the same time, it denies all the doctrines of sovereign grace confessed by the Reformed churches in the Canons of Dordt. The movement denies the “five points of Calvinism.” It denies the doctrines of grace in a remarkably open and bold manner.

Steve Schlisel:

“They don’t believe that their children are saved by the grace of God. They are waiting for a decision—some sort of cogent, confessable experience of personal regeneration in transition from death to life—because they believe that their children are born in death. They have bought into the Baptistic way of thinking, and it is an abomination.”
Steve Schlissel, “Covenant Reading.” Lecture delivered at the Auburn Avenue Pastor’s Conference, 2002.
He speaks of Baptists and Southern Presbyterians awaiting for a cognitive act, a decision, in the life of their children. This act, this decision, is placing faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, Baptists and Southern Presbyterians are evangelicals. They hold to justification by faith alone. Justification is not received through physical birth or by baptism (John 1:12). Evangelicals understand that their children are born dead in trespasses and sins (Romans 5:12), and that they are not brought into the family of God unless, and until, they are awakened by the Spirit of God and granted faith to trust the Lord Jesus alone for salvation (Ephesians 2:1–9). The seed of Abraham are known, not by the sign or seal of the covenant, but by faith (Romans 4:9–25; 9:6–8, 30–33; Galatians 3:6–9).

Doug Wilson:

“In one exegetical debate between an average Arminian, who has checked out the Scripture and the average Calvinist, who has checked out his system, the average Arminian is going eat that Calvinist’s lunch when it comes to the perseverance of the saints. Now perseverance, this is difficult because the perseverance of the saints is the one point of Calvinism that is popular. All right, all the rest we hate the more, yes, we hate them. Perseverance, you mean I can’t lose my salvation once I get saved? I can’t lose it? Who? Well, but that is the most popular tenet of Calvinism and when you are looking at the Scripture as they present themselves to us in the light of our system, it is the least defensible” (Visible and Invisible Church Revisited, tape 2).

Wilson even likens the traditional Reformed view to a giant “beware of cliff” sign in the middle of Kansas.[35] RINE p. 132
“To see election through a covenant lens does not mean to define decretal election as though it were identical with covenant election.” This distinction between decretal and covenantal election….. where is THAT in the bible? One that includes perseverance, another that does not include it? Where in the bible does it speak of this sort of election where you are loved, forgiven, accepted in the beloved, and then damned?

“Well, the point would be that believers within the covenant know that Christ has bore
the curse for them. But covenant members who do not believe this are thereby
identified as unbelievers. Because they are unbelievers, and all the promises of
Christ are apprehended by faith alone, and because there is a fundamental
differentiation within the covenant during the course of history, unbelievers within
the covenant receive the curses of the covenant, and not the blessings of the
covenant.”
Where does the bible speak of covenant unbelievers who are yet under the curse?

“An unbelieving covenant member incurs all the curses of the covenant, while
the believer appropriates all its blessings by faith alone” (Credo on Baptism,
by faith alone) His reply to Waters. http://federal-vision.com/pdf/wilson_waters.pdf
What covenant is that??? Ye are not come to Mount Sianai, etc., but unto Mt. Zion
where “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us”
Anyone remotely familiar with the New Testament knows that no such language is found there as “the curses of the new covenant”.

“A theological liberal…should be considered covenantally a Christian, even though he denies the virgin birth, the substitutionary death of Christ, the resurrection, and the final judgment. He is a Christian in just the same way that an adulterous husband is a husband.” [14] he adds, “And when a liberal bishop says that Christ was merely a man, he is more than wrong. He is antichrist. But he does belong to that which he betrays. Judas was this kind of bishop (Acts 1:20).”
14Douglas Wilson, “Judas Was a Bishop,” Credenda Agenda: Presbyterion vol. 13, no. 2. Accessed at http://www.credenda.org/issues/13-2presbyterion.php?type=print.
“I want to begin by saying that when we first start talking about the objectivity of the covenant and it starts to sink in what we are saying. You mean that you are saying that lesbian Eskimo bishop lady is a Christian? She is not a Buddhist, she is not a Muslim, yes, in the New Testament sense, she is a New Testament Christian” (Doug Wilson.”[45] “Douglas Wilson, Auburn Pastors conference, 2002, The Curses of the New Covenant, tape 7.

Wilson says that using the word “Christian” to mean “conversion as an internal reality” is fallacious.[17]

IICor.5:17, “If any man be in Christ he is a new creation; old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new”.
Also…. translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light…..
This is what a Christian is, and it was assumed that those who belonged to the NT church had experienced this conversion, as if ever they gave evidence that they had not, they were commanded to be put out. …. i.e., the lesbian bishop and ICor.5 If such persons are in the church at all, they are there because of the church’s neglect of God’s command. Calvin and the Libertines/Edwards and the communion controversy. Yet Wilson argues that to exclude them is to be “routed” by them, but to admit them to fight with is the proper victory.

Wilson’s duplicity:
Actually, I argue for defining Christian in two different ways. I define quarter as a
coin in my pocket, and I define quarter as a fourth of something. I don’t “weight” my
definition of quarter one way or the other. Why is this so difficult? I hold that a
Christian is someone who is born again of the Spirit of God — “Paul’s statement is
blunt — he is not a Christian who has only the externals” (RINE, p. 18). And then, in
a completely distinct sense, a Christian is anyone who is baptized in the name of the
Father, Son and Holy Spirit: “they were baptized in infancy or when they were ten in
a Baptist church, they sang in the choir and went through catechism class, and they
are not Buddhists” (RINE, p. 17).

You cannot hold both views. The former excludes the other. A Christian cannot be both a regenerate soul, and an apostate one. That is double talk. A quarter of “something”, and a quarter of a dollar, and two completely different things, and we are defining one thing, not two. What is a CHRISTIAN. This is the sort of inanity into which Wilson descends when cornered with his contradictions.

“But we also know from our Bibles that there is only one church, one Lord, one faith, one baptism. So we’ve got two churches with two different rosters of names…. Now if you’ve got two churches existing at the same time with different names on their membership rolls, the question that comes up and it may not come up consciously, but the question is which one is the real church?” (Doug Wilson, Visible and Invisible Church Revisited, tape 2)

Steve Wilkins:
Steve Wilkins says: “If we do not persevere, we lose the blessings that were given to us in God’s covenant. Thus, when one breaks the covenant, it can be truly said, he has turned away from grace and forfeited life, forgiveness, and salvation…. the apostate lose the forgiveness that was theirs really and truly in the covenant…. they are viewed as being in possession of this great salvation but of allowing it to ‘slip away’…. they may enjoy for a season many of the blessings of the covenant, including the forgiveness of sins, adoption, possession of the kingdom, sanctification, etc., and yet apostatize and fall short of the grace of God…. That which makes apostacy so horrible is that these blessings actually belonged to the apostates…. They lose something they actually possessed…. The distinction of ‘external’ and ‘internal’ union are invented and not in the text [Jn. 15:1-8]” (The Covenant and Apostacy, Tape 1).

4. The Church is not merely a means to salvation, a stepping-stone to a more ultimate goal. Rather, the Church herself is God’s salvation (WCF 25.1,2), the partially-realized goal in history that will be brought to final fulfillment at the last day. When someone is united to the Church by baptism, he is incorporated into Christ and into His body; he becomes bone of Christ’s bone and flesh of His flesh (Eph. 5:30). Until and unless that person breaks covenant, he is reckoned among God’s elect and regenerate saints.

7. By baptism one is joined to Christ’s body, united to Him covenantally, and given all the blessings and benefits of His work (Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:1ff; WSC #94). This does not, however, grant to the baptised final salvation; (final salvation not a “blessing and benefit of His work”?) rather, it obligates him to fulfill the terms of the covenant (embracing these blessings by faith, repenting of sins, and persevering in faithful obedience to God). One can only fulfill the terms of the covenant by faith, not by works. And even this faith is the gift of God, lest anyone should boast.
8. God has decreed from the foundation of the world all that comes to pass, including who would be saved and lost for all eternity. Included in His decree, however, is that some persons, not destined for final salvation, will be drawn to Christ and His people only for a time. These, for a season, enjoy real blessings, purchased for them by Christ’s cross and applied to them by the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament.
12. It appears that the Bible speaks of salvation, more often than not, in relational and covenantal categories, rather than in metaphysical ones. “Salvation” is not a thing we possess that can be lost and found, like car keys. It is a matter of being rightly related to God through Christ. But relationships are not static, unchanging entities. They are fluid and dynamic. Our salvation covenant with the Lord is like a marriage. If we persevere in loyalty to Christ, we will live with Him happily ever after. If we break the marriage covenant, He will divorce us. It may not be wise to call this “losing one’s salvation,” but it seems contrary to Scripture to say that nothing at all is lost. To draw such a conclusion appears to deny the reality of the covenant and the blessedness that is said to belong even to those who ultimately prove themselves reprobate (Heb. 10:26ff).

Auburn Ave. Church confession

According to Steve Wilkins, “Because being in covenant with God means being in Christ, those who are in covenant have all spiritual blessings in the heavenly places.” This includes all the blessings listed in Ephesians 1:3-14: election, adoption, justification,
11 forgiveness of sins, sanctification, regeneration, possession of the Kingdom, and so forth. “It is not accurate to say that they only ‘appeared’ to have these things but did not actually have them—if that were so, there would be nothing to ‘forsake’ and apostasy is bled of its horror and severity.” Nevertheless, the elect may “later reject the Savior” and “they are no longer elect–they are cut off from the Elect One and thus, lose their elect standing. But their falling away doesn’t negate the reality of their standing prior to their apostasy. They were really and truly elect of God because of their relationship with Christ.” Page 2231, #73 of the PCA Report

(On Jn. 15, vine/branches) Steve Wilkins writes: “Calvinists have not dealt faithfully with his text….The distinction of ‘external’ and ‘internal’ union are invented and not in the text. Both kind of branches are truly and vitally joined on the vine. Both can and should be fruitful” (The Covenant and Apostacy, tape1).

John Barach:
(Note what Doug Wilson says regarding John Barach’s lecture: “Theologically I think I want to amen everything that John said in his talk about election and covenant and the reality of it , how that works” (Doug Wilson, The Curses of the New Covenant, tape 7).)

John Barach says: “Every baptized person is in covenant with God and is in union with Christ and with the triune God…. We need to say to everyone to say [to every baptized person] Jesus died for you personally and we mean it, to them, head for head, everyone of them” (Covenant and History, tape 3).

As John Barach proclaimed, “How do you know [the promise of election] is really for you? The answer is that you’ve had the special experience. You’ve been baptized.” In pushing forward baptism as a “special experience,” the FV writers set it over against “subjective experience”: “Men must have something objective and certain. But if you refuse to look to your baptism, then all you are left with is experience.”76 Page 2233 of the PCA Report

The question: Why is objective “evidence” of election any better, unless baptismal regeneration is an absolute certainty, else you are left equally uncertain? This is especially the case in as much as they aver that you can be thus in the covenant, elect, and justified, and then none of these if you are not faithful….. so they allow no certainty whatever in their own demented doctrine.

(Note what Doug Wilson says regarding John Barach’s lecture: “Theologically I think I want to amen everything that John said in his talk about election and covenant and the reality of it , how that works” (Doug Wilson, The Curses of the New Covenant, tape 7).)

Subject: Baptismal Regeneration:
“How could you know you are in Him? God gave you the seal and sign of baptism. He gave you that rite that brought you into Christ and you can look and you can trust that God’s promises are objective” (John Barach, Covenant and Election, tape 6).[24] Objective…. i.e. ex opere operato
“The Bible doesn’t know about a distinction between being internally in the covenant and really in the covenant, and being only externally in the covenant, just being in the sphere of the covenant. The Bible speaks about reality, the efficacy of baptism” (John Barach, Covenant History, tape 3).
“Raise your right hand if you knew that the Westminster Confession taught baptismal regeneration…. Baptism means that the one baptized has a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, the one baptized has been grafted into Christ, he has the sign and seal of regeneration, forgiveness of sins, and the obligation to walk in newness of life” (Doug Wilson, Reformed Is Not Enough).[25]
“Traditionally, the Reformed have said, we have to view our children as presumptively elect or presumptively regenerate. And therefore, Christian, if we are willing to take the Scriptures as face value, there is no presumption necessary. Just take the Bible. And this is true, of course, because by the baptism, by baptism the Spirit joins us to Christ since he is the elect one and the Church is the elect people, we are joined to his body. We therefore are elect. Since he is the justified one, we are justified in him. Since he is the beloved one, we are beloved in him. Since he was saved from his sin in death…so are we” (Steve Wilkins, Half-Way Covenant, tape 11).
“The Bible teaches us that baptism unites us [Wilkins believes that baptism is efficacious to everyone baptized] to Christ and by his, and to his body the power of the spirit. By one spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, we’ve all been made to drink of one Spirit. Paul says that at baptism you are clothed with Christ Jesus. For as many of you as are baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. Union with Christ is a real, vital blessed union. The clothes make the man. With our union with Christ, we have all spiritual blessings. Union with Christ is union with the church, his body.”[26] (Steve Wilkins, Half Way Covenant, tape 11).
“…some persons, not destined for final salvation, will be drawn to Christ and His people only for a time. These, for a season, enjoy real blessings, purchased for them by Christ’s cross and applied to them by the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament…. Saul received the same initial covenantal grace that David, Gideon, and other men who persevered in faith received, but he did not receive the gift of perseverance…. In one sense, all those in the covenant are ‘saved.’ They have been delivered out of the world and brought into the glorious new creation of Christ, but not all will persevere in that ‘salvation’” (Summary Statement of the Auburn Ave. Presbyterian Church’s Position on the Covenant, Baptism, and Salvation, [emphasis added]).

Simon the magician…… Peter told him he was NOT SAVED, right after being baptized, because of evident ill motive. Acts 8:13, 23

N.T. Wright:

“The righteousness they have will not be God’s own righteousness…God’s righteousness remains, so to speak, God’s own property. It is the reason for his acting to vindicate his people. It is not the status he bestows upon them in so doing.”
N.T.Wright, What Saint Paul Really Said, 99 (emphasis his). Elsewhere, Wright observed that “justification in the present is possible, Paul argues, because the grace of God deals with the sins of the people through the death of Jesus. The people in question are, therefore, a forgiven family” (Wright, Romans, 466).

Norman Shepherd:

“Good works were necessary as the way of justification, and not simply as its fruit. Walking in the way of obedience was necessary to maintain justification. The sinner seeking justification might just as well be told to follow Jesus as to believe in Jesus” (O. Palmer Robertson, Justification Controversy, p. 30).

Mr. Shepherd affirmed that a person could lose his justification. He proposed that an individual who was elect according to the election of Ephesians 1 could become non-elect if he did not continue to walk in covenant faithfulness (Justification Controversy, p. 22). Shepherd was known to teach that “the ‘branches to be cut off’ in John 15 first were savingly united to Christ” (Justification Controversy, p. 57).

Subject: Baptismal Regeneration:
“How could you know you are in Him? God gave you the seal and sign of baptism. He gave you that rite that brought you into Christ and you can look and you can trust that God’s promises are objective” (John Barach, Covenant and Election, tape 6).[24]
“The Bible doesn’t know about a distinction between being internally in the covenant and really in the covenant, and being only externally in the covenant, just being in the sphere of the covenant. The Bible speaks about reality, the efficacy of baptism” (John Barach, Covenant History, tape 3).
“Raise your right hand if you knew that the Westminster Confession taught baptismal regeneration…. Baptism means that the one baptized has a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, the one baptized has been grafted into Christ, he has the sign and seal of regeneration, forgiveness of sins, and the obligation to walk in newness of life” (Doug Wilson, Reformed Is Not Enough).[25]
“Traditionally, the Reformed have said, we have to view our children as presumptively elect or presumptively regenerate. And therefore, Christian, if we are willing to take the Scriptures as face value, there is no presumption necessary. Just take the Bible. And this is true, of course, because by the baptism, by baptism the Spirit joins us to Christ since he is the elect one and the Church is the elect people, we are joined to his body. We therefore are elect. Since he is the justified one, we are justified in him. Since he is the beloved one, we are beloved in him. Since he was saved from his sin in death…so are we” (Steve Wilkins, Half-Way Covenant, tape 11).
“The Bible teaches us that baptism unites us [Wilkins believes that baptism is efficacious to everyone baptized] to Christ and by his, and to his body the power of the spirit. By one spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, we’ve all been made to drink of one Spirit. Paul says that at baptism you are clothed with Christ Jesus. For as many of you as are baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. Union with Christ is a real, vital blessed union. The clothes make the man. With our union with Christ, we have all spiritual blessings. Union with Christ is union with the church, his body.”[26] (Steve Wilkins, Half Way Covenant, tape 11).
“…some persons, not destined for final salvation, will be drawn to Christ and His people only for a time. These, for a season, enjoy real blessings, purchased for them by Christ’s cross and applied to them by the Holy Spirit through Word and Sacrament…. Saul received the same initial covenental grace that David, Gideon, and other men who persevered in faith received, but he did not receive the gift of perseverance…. In one sense, all those in the covenant are ‘saved.’ They have been delivered out of the world and brought into the glorious new creation of Christ, but not all will persevere in that ‘salvation’” (Summary Statement of the Auburn Ave. Presbyterian Church’s Position on the Covenant, Baptism, and Salvation, [emphasis added]).